HomeMy WebLinkAboutCorrespondence Regarding Fire SprinklersDave Argo
From: Andy Schwaller
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 4:55 PM
To: Max Filiss
Cc: Bill Gavette; Dave Argo
Subject: RE: [External] Ganzi Barn
Max,
There are other fire code related items based on the total size of the building and the type of construction that also kick
in sprinkler requirements for a structure. You are probably over the 7500 s.f. structure limit for VB construction per
Table A of the fire code. The fire wall might help this situation, but one needs a really sharp architect to detail the
various requirements associated with fire walls related to parapets, structural independence, openings and exterior fire
rated walls. A fire barrier might work but a formal review of this option would need to be done by a fire engineer. Type
13 sprinkler systems allow for a different set of egress requirements that might be required for this building based on
travel distance and common path of travel. There are other reason to require sprinklers that may apply.
If you have the water and pressure, the sprinkler will make for a better and safer structure. There might also be some
insurance benefits.
Andy
From: Max Filiss <max@dividecreekbuilders.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 3:58 PM
To: Andy Schwaller <aschwaller@garfield-county.com>
Subject: Re: [External] Ganzi Barn
Ok. I will send and email to him, with you and Dave copied.
Thanks
Max
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 3:57 PM Andy Schwaller <aschwaller@garfield-countv.com> wrote:
It would require a sprinkler system. It would be up to Bill if it is a 13D or 13R.
From: Max Filiss <max@dividecreekbuilders.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 3:49 PM
To: Andy Schwaller<aschwaller@garfield-countv.com>
Subject: Re: [External] Ganzi Barn
1566 sq ft
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 3:46 PM Andy Schwaller<aschwaller@garrield-county.com> wrote:
1
How big is the ADU?
From: Max Filiss <max(dividecreekbuiiders.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 3:36 PM
To: Andy Schwaller<aschwalier@garfield-countv.com>
Subject: [External] Ganzi Barn
Andy
Thanks for the call earlier and confirming if we install a UL listed Fire Wall or Fire Barrier that we then would not need
fire sprinklers in the barn and only 13 in the residential unit. After I hung up, it dawned on me, that with that
separation we also may not be required to put sprinklers in the residential either? Or is there something I am missing?
Sorry, I just can't seem to get this all straight.
Thanks
Max
Max Filiss
Divide Creek Builders
75 N 2ND ST STE B
CARBONDALE CO 81623
MOBILE-970-618-7158
OFFICE-970-963-3555
FAX-970-963-1955
2
Dave Argo
From: Dave Argo
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 8:31 AM
To: Max Filiss
Cc: Andy Schwaller (aschwaller@garfield-county.com); Bill Gavette
(gavette@carbondalefire.org)
Subject: Re: Ganzi Barn - Plan Review Correction Notice Follow -Up
Max:
These site plan layouts will work for our purposes and I can attach the 11 x 17 size plans to the permit drawings already
submitted. However, we still need to receive full-size copies of the other drawings noted in my previous email (Architect
sheets 1 and 3) before we can finalize our plan review.
Also, I wanted to follow-up your questions regarding fire sprinklers in the Ganzi Barn. It's an issue discussed at length
between myself, Andy Schwaller & Bill Gavette when the Foster Barn came in for building permit a couple of years ago.
The Building Department's position is that because overall size of this building exceeds the maximum allowable size of
7,500 SF (as per I.F.C., Table A shown below) the entirety of the structure is required to have an automatic fire sprinkler
system installed ... just like the Foster Barn which was built a couple of years ago.
TABLE A
ALLOWABLE FLOOR AREA
FOR BUILDINGS
Building Type
Maximum
Floor Area
HII•B WB
7,500 1
V-A, II-S
9.000
II -A, III -A, IV-Hr, I -A,
I-B
12,000
Bill, Andy and I purposefully had that discussion fully knowing that there were going to be multiple iterations of this type
of Barn + Dwelling Unit structures built out over several years' time on this property, and we wanted to be consistent in
how we review this aspect of our plan review and inspections. If you would, please make a note of this policy so that we
don't have to revisit it every time a new version of these buildings is submitted to our office for permit.
Having said that, as Andy pointed out in a prior email, it is possible to provide fire -rated assemblies that address area
separation requirements between uses within a building (I.B.C., Section 706 — Fire Walls) such that you essentially use
building assemblies (walls, floors, roofs) to in effect create two separate fire areas within the same structure. However,
it is not as simple as adding a one -hour fire assembly between the barn and the residence. The fire rating requirement is
2-hours (I.B.C., Table 706.4) and there are very specific requirements which must be met — including horizontal/vertical
integrity from foundation up to 4 feet above the roof, openings & penetrations near the Fire Wall, etc. and that is why
Andy suggested that you may need to have a Fire Engineer assist you and your Architect identify all of these related
requirements if you choose to go in that direction.
Hope that explanation helps you understand the Building Department's position on this issue.
Dave Argo
Plans Examiner
1
Dave Argo
From: Bill Gavette <gavette@carbondalefire.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 9:42 AM
To: Max Filiss; Andy Schwaller
Cc: Dave Argo; Erik VanTassel; Mark Ward
Subject: RE: [External] Ganzi Barn at Aspen Polo Partners
Max,
I hadn't reviewed the square footage previously but keep in mind that the Fire Area calculation includes the roof
projections which seem to put the barn well over 7,500 square feet. This may influence the direction they decide to
take.
FIRE AREA. The aggregate floor area enclosed and bounded by fire walls, fire barriers, exterior walls or
horizontal assemblies of a building. Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be
included in the fire area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor next
above.
Thanks,
Bill Gavette
Deputy Chief
Carbondale & Rural Fire Protection District
www.carbondalefire.org
970-963-2491
PI RE•EMS •RESCUE
From: Max Filiss [mailto:max@dividecreekbuilders.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 9:32 AM
To: Andy Schwaller
Cc: Bill Gavette; Dave Argo; Erik VanTassel; Mark Ward; Max Filiss
Subject: Re: [External] Ganzi Barn at Aspen Polo Partners
Thanks Andy
Understood on all accounts. I am going back to the clients to see which direction they would like to take. The
decision is out of my hands.
Thanks for all your help , and sorry about the misspelling of your last name!
Max
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 8:48 AM Andy Schwaller <aschwaller@garfield-county.com> wrote:
Max,
i
Dave Argo
From: Max Filiss <max@dividecreekbuilders.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 10:02 AM
To: Dave Argo; Erik VanTassel; Mark Ward
Cc: Max Filiss; Andy Schwaller; Bill Gavette (gavette@carbondalefire.org)
Subject: Re: [External] Ganzi Barn - Plan Review Correction Notice Follow -Up
Andy, Dave and Bill
Ok. I guess apologies are in order. I didn't mean to waste all of your time or ruffle any feathers. I am just trying to make
sure my clients are treated fairly and consistently according to all codes. They also entrust me to protect their money,
and a fire sprinkler system in this scenario is a large investment, even for clients with high means. That being said, it is
also my obligation to make sure I don't skirt any requirements and give them a safe and secure structure. Simply put, I
get them the information and they make their decisions.
All in all, I guess I misinterpreted early discussions from a couple years ago that there were ways to stay within the
confinements of code and still get them safe structures, without sprinkling the barn areas. I can tell from your flurry of
comments that is not the case and I have to respect you as professionals to direct us toward the safest path for the
safety of the structure and its occupants. Therefore, I spoke to the clients this am and instructed them that their best
alternative was to install a sprinkler system throughout the entire structure. They are now understanding of the
situation in totality and are in agreement that this is the best path forward.
Therefore, I will assemble the new plan sheets and submit two new sets by the end of the week and will look forward to
any further response or directions from you.
Thanks for all your time and apologies for the misunderstandings on my part!
Max
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 8:30 AM Dave Argo <dargoPgarfield-countv.com> wrote:
Max:
These site plan layouts will work for our purposes and I can attach the 11 x 17 size plans to the permit drawings already
submitted. However, we still need to receive full-size copies of the other drawings noted in my previous email
(Architect sheets 1 and 3) before we can finalize our plan review.
Also, I wanted to follow-up your questions regarding fire sprinklers in the Ganzi Barn. It's an issue discussed at length
between myself, Andy Schwaller & Bill Gavette when the Foster Barn came in for building permit a couple of years ago.
The Building Department's position is that because overall size of this building exceeds the maximum allowable size of
7,500 SF (as per I.F.C., Table A shown below) the entirety of the structure is required to have an automatic fire sprinkler
system installed ... just like the Foster Barn which was built a couple of years ago.
1
TABLE A
ALLOWABLE FLOOR AREA
FOR BUILDINGS
Building Type
llt-13 V-B
V-A, II=B
11-A, 111 -A, lV-HT, I -A,
1-B
Maximum
Floor Area
7,500
9,000
12,000
Bill, Andy and I purposefully had that discussion fully knowing that there were going to be multiple iterations of this
type of Barn + Dwelling Unit structures built out over several years' time on this property, and we wanted to be
consistent in how we review this aspect of our plan review and inspections. If you would, please make a note of this
policy so that we don't have to revisit it every time a new version of these buildings is submitted to our office for
permit.
Having said that, as Andy pointed out in a prior email, it is possible to provide fire -rated assemblies that address area
separation requirements between uses within a building (I.B.C., Section 706 — Fire Walls) such that you essentially use
building assemblies (walls, floors, roofs) to in effect create two separate fire areas within the same structure. However,
it is not as simple as adding a one -hour fire assembly between the barn and the residence. The fire rating requirement
is 2-hours (I.B.C., Table 706.4) and there are very specific requirements which must be met — including
horizontal/vertical integrity from foundation up to 4 feet above the roof, openings & penetrations near the Fire Wall,
etc. and that is why Andy suggested that you may need to have a Fire Engineer assist you and your Architect identify all
of these related requirements if you choose to go in that direction.
Hope that explanation helps you understand the Building Department's position on this issue.
Dave Argo
Plans Examiner
E . (:urf eld County
Community Development Department
108 8th Street, Suite 401
Glenwood Springs, CO 81601
2